How to Grow Creativity, Vulnerability and Community with Charlie Dark

Charlie Dark (00:00):
If I was starting Run Dem Crew now, it probably wouldn't be a running crew. It would be an organization that did lots of different things that were good for you. When I started Run Dem, I was just so blown away by the impact that running had on me, that I thought that was all you needed... The more you start getting into wellness and wellbeing, you suddenly realize that running is just one very small component of all this other stuff that you could be doing.

Music (00:34):
[Levitate theme by Nic Nell]

Ryan Nell (00:45):
Hello and welcome to Levitate with Ryan Nell — the show where we talk to people who are changing the world for good. In today's episode, we're talking to Charlie Dark. Charlie has had an incredible career as an international DJ and signed musician, as the founder of Run Dem Crew, an international phenomenon in the world of running, as a brand ambassador, as a proud father — and Charlie is now shaking up the world of yoga.

Ryan Nell (01:13):
In our super wide-ranging conversation, we talk about how vulnerability can be a superpower, the pressure of starting something at your kitchen table and sticking with it as it grows beyond your wildest imaginings, some of the challenges and benefits around building a community, and why drawing a one mile circle around your house might be the best thing you could do.

Ryan Nell (01:37):
Charlie is incredibly honest during this conversation. That's something that I really, really love about him. It comes across in everything he does. And I'm particularly excited for you to hear this episode because Charlie is a huge part of the Levitate story. I met with him really early on to get inspiration and advice about how to start a community. And I constantly turn to him for inspiration when the going gets tough. So without further ado, introducing the one and only Charlie Dark!

Ryan Nell (02:10):
I'm absolutely thrilled to be here with you today, Charlie. It's been a little while in the coming and you've been on my radar for quite a long time actually. So I've been a bit of a fan from afar. You were very, very kind to meet me for a coffee and a sandwich a couple of years ago...

Charlie Dark (02:27):
Oh yeah!

Ryan Nell (02:27):
When you were just getting started... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was furiously noting down all the advice on how to start a community and get one going.

Charlie Dark (02:35):
Yeah. Did it work? It's not very easy at all.

Ryan Nell (02:41):
It's not [laughing].

Charlie Dark (02:41):
It takes a lot of hard work [laughing].

Ryan Nell (02:45):
So, before we get into that, I want to ask you about where you came up. I know you started in East Dulwich?

Charlie Dark (02:50):
Yeah, I grew up in East Dulwich and went to school in South London. I spent a large amount of my time kind of in South London. And then I would say probably about 1985, I started exploring...

Ryan Nell (03:03):
Exploring?

New Speaker (03:03):
Exploring via music. So my love of music basically introduced me to areas that I didn't really know about, or didn't know existed. Didn't know if I was welcome. And it just started, you know, I kind of got this real thirst for traveling around London and discovering new places, you know? And that was kind of really important. And I think it's a really important thing when you live anywhere, is kind of really trying to discover your city and explore it.

Ryan Nell (03:25):
Yeah, because you were a jungle DJ?

Charlie Dark (03:29):
I started off as a hip hop DJ actually. Yeah. And then got into playing all different types of music, but I was signed to a label called Mo' Wax in the nineties, and so kind of got into — a lot into electronic music heavily around that period of time. Playing all forms of music and it obviously was like, you know, jungle kind of descended on London in the early nineties. I was definitely fully into that [laughing].

Ryan Nell (03:51):
Yeah [laughing]. There was quite a big rave scene in London.

Charlie Dark (03:56):
Yeah, there was a really big rave scene. And prior to the rave scene, there was like a warehouse party scene that was really interesting. Again, that introduced me to different areas of London. Like I'd never been to East London before, until I went to a warehouse party. It was like a no go area. I'd never been to Brick Lane until I went to warehouse party. Invariably what would happen is, you'd go to these kinds of events, stay until the sun came up, because it was really hard to get home if you weren't driving, and then you would kind of explore the area that you had ended up in, or the person's house that you'd ended up in. I can remember ending up in Old Street for the very first time, and just thinking "this place is surreal"!

Ryan Nell (04:35):
[Laughing].

Charlie Dark (04:36):
It was so weird back in 1990, like the early nineties, it was so barren.

Ryan Nell (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember it... I suppose I moved to London in 2005, so a little bit later...

Charlie Dark (04:46):
Yeah. Where were you before then?

Ryan Nell (04:48):
Living out in Taiwan for a couple of years.

Charlie Dark (04:52):
As one does [laughing].

Ryan Nell (04:53):
As one does [laughing]! Studying Chinese. But that's a story for another podcast. And then before that Hampshire.

Charlie Dark (05:00):
Okay.

Ryan Nell (05:01):
Yeah, which is why I just feel like an adoptive Londoner. But in 2005, Old Street, Shoreditch... they were already becoming, very cool.

New Speaker (05:09):
Yeah, they were definitely on their way.

Ryan Nell (05:10):
Yeah and then quickly unaffordable and full of bankers.

Charlie Dark (05:13):
Yeah, I mean I had this warehouse, and it's so stupid now, but I had this warehouse in Old Street, from about '95 to '98 —

Ryan Nell (05:21):
Oh yeah?

New Speaker (05:24):
And the guy who owned it was like: "Okay, I'm going to sell this place. You can have it for 85,000 pounds". It was like a thousand square feet —

Ryan Nell (05:31):
[Laughing]

Charlie Dark (05:31):
And we were like, ah, you know, it's a bit expensive, you know? Because it was still a hole... It was a massive warehouse. I dread to think how much that place is worth now. But hindsight, you know, is a wonderful thing.

Ryan Nell (05:46):
Right? It's 20/20.

New Speaker (05:48):
You've got to keep moving forward.

Ryan Nell (05:52):
You had a whole music career — Attica Blues and Sony and Mo Wax. And are you still DJing now? Are you still making music?

Charlie Dark (06:00):
Yeah, I'm still — I took some time off. I start getting anxiety attacks and panic attacks when I was DJing. So and this is probably about 12, 13 years ago. So I kind of had to just take some time out. Yeah. And I kind of started getting back into it maybe about three years ago, three, four years ago. First of all, I started getting back into making music again, because I completely stopped. I'd really fallen out of love with it. And then kind of got, started getting back into DJing and buying records, and now I've got radio show and yeah, I'm back in the music mix, which is quite interesting. But it's back in the music mix on my own terms, which is a much nicer place to be.

Ryan Nell (06:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlie Dark (06:40):
The whole musical landscape has changed now. So the way you make music, the way you release music, the way you collaborate is completely different. And that's really refreshing.

Ryan Nell (06:49):
Yeah. It almost feels like the labels are pretty incidental for a lot of musicians.

Charlie Dark (06:54):
Yeah, you know, I think people are very unconcerned about how a song was made. Where in the world it was made, what it was mixed on, what label released it. It's really very much kind of: "If it's good we like it". And if it's not, then it's kind of just goes into the heap of the other numerous tracks that are coming out in the moment.

Ryan Nell (07:15):
The also rans! And so, are you writing anything at the moment?

Charlie Dark (07:17):
Yeah. I'm in the middle of working on a new project, which is kind of, because time is limited and I'm getting on in age, you know? I'm very, very conscious of the fact that whatever I do, has to kind of have some purpose, of some sort, and [is] kind of consolidating ideas. And I'm also trying to, you know, not expend energy in areas which are not going to serve me. This is the wiseness growing up. So yeah, which is a long way of saying that I'm making this project, which has got lots of different strands. And at the moment, we're just kind of boiling them down into a thing that we can take around the world.

Ryan Nell (07:58):
Oh man. Amazing.

Charlie Dark (07:59):
And that's the idea. It's to kind of take this thing that kind of brings in all my different influences. Really what I should be doing is making an album about running...

Ryan Nell (08:06):
Yeah [laughing]?

Charlie Dark (08:07):
But that's the last thing I want to do. I just really don't want to do that everyone keeps saying to me, "Hey, you need to write a book about running, and you need to kind of make an album about running". I'm just like: "Ah... I dunno. It feels like a job" [laughing].

Ryan Nell (08:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, when did Run Dem Crew get started?

Charlie Dark (08:22):
End of 2006, early 2007 is when it began. And I just kind of, I never thought it was going to grow into what it has grown into. But that was never the aim. It wasn't this aim to grow this organization. I really was just like, you know: "My friends keep dying. They keep getting sick, ending up in hospital, our lifestyles that we're leading a really unhealthy, we need an intervention. We need to do something". And then also, as is well documented, I kind of started to miss people, because what happens when you are successful at what you do, is then you start making more money, and then you also start traveling a lot. So then you're just chasing your friends around the world, and you never in the same place at the same time...

Ryan Nell (09:12):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (09:13):
And so it was just an attempt to kind of bring people together. And I've always liked bringing people together and I guess that's a skill that I've learned from DJing and I was just like: OK, cool. And, you know, every day I wake up, I feel very, very blessed that Run Dem Crew has grown into the kind of institution that it has.

Ryan Nell (09:36):
Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie Dark (09:38):
But as you know, as you know, when you have a thing that you've grown, it does become a bit of an albatross at times. You know, it's like...

Ryan Nell (09:46):
Yeah. We're multi dimensional.

Charlie Dark (09:48):
That's it. Yeah. I do have days when it gets to Tuesday, and I'm like: "Oh God, it's Run Dem Crew".

Ryan Nell (09:55):
Yeah. It seems like, you're obviously an incredibly creative guy. And you could just keep on evolving it. Right? So it seems like it's had all sorts of different shapes and sizes and you're in Brixton Street Gym now...

Charlie Dark (10:08):
Yeah we're in Brixton Street Gym now. We're kind of back in the community phase. Which is a really good place to be. And it's been really interesting moving back to Brixton and seeing the different types of people that are coming down. That's really interesting as well. And you know, I'm really excited by the collaboration that we have going down with Brixton Street Gym. It kind of makes a lot of sense for us. And it's good to be out of Shoreditch. You know, it's good to be tucked away where, you know, there's not really too much attention on what we're doing. We can kind of just get on with it.

Ryan Nell (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Under the radar. Although, I kind of had the sense that Brixton Street Gym's going to become something quite...

Charlie Dark (10:45):
I mean, Brixton Street Gym already is something big, but I think the concept of what they have, because it's so brilliant, I think that's something that's going to spread globally. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. That'd be really lovely to see. Yeah. I love it down there. It's good. We need to get you down there. They could do with... They need some meditation in the place.

Ryan Nell (11:04):
Yeah, well, yeah, I'd love to. Wearing a very different hat, I used to work in a creative agency called Champion in Brixton. And we did this whole series of branding for them. It's kind of pre Brixton Street Gym.

Charlie Dark (11:20):
Oh nice. Wicked.

Ryan Nell (11:21):
You've had various associations with very large sporting labels...

Charlie Dark (11:25):
I like the way you diplomatically put that. That was really cool. That's clever.

Ryan Nell (11:31):
How is that, how does that work? I imagine it's a bit of a double-edged sword. Maybe not speaking about the current one, but...

Charlie Dark (11:38):
The current one that I'm with is lovely. They're really lovely, really, really lovely. And I think what happens is it takes you a bit of time to find your tribe, you know?

Ryan Nell (11:47):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (11:47):
But definitely working with major sports brands, or major brands in general, can have some amazing plus factors. And then some also really frustrating lows. Because they are like large cruise ships. They take an incredibly long time to turn. And, you know, I've worked with sports brands since 2007. Some of it has been lovely and amazing and some of it has been quite, you know, quite hair-pulling at times. But I'm in a good place at the moment. I like the brands that I'm working with at the moment. They're really, they're really cool. Well it's taken a while to kind of weed out the bad ones from the good ones.

Ryan Nell (12:28):
[Laughing]. It's a process. Yeah. I suppose one of the things going on there is that they'll want a certain version of you, which isn't necessarily the you of a particular day.

Charlie Dark (12:38):
Yeah. It's not really, I don't know if it's even that. I just think the ideas that get talked about around the board table, often sound really great around the boardroom table. But in reality of life, they just don't work.

Ryan Nell (12:51):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (12:51):
And that's really hard, you know, to get people to understand that. And then also I think ultimately at the end of the day, they ultimately want to make money. That's their ultimate thing. And I like making money, but I also like helping people. And I liked building communities. I like maintaining them. And so at some point you always come to a loggerhead, you know, you start putting in different directions. And it's cool if you're working with people who understand and also come down and get involved...

Ryan Nell (13:19):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (13:19):
But when you're working with people who kind of, it's almost like you're working with them remotely, so they're kind of judging everything you do through the Instagram lens. Because they're actually too scared to actually come down and participate. Then life just gets really hard. And that's the one thing I like about, you know, the brands that I get to work with now. Because you know, we just put this rule in. It's kind of: "We will not have a conversation with you. We will not do any work with you unless you come down. If you don't come down, then we can't do it". You know? And I think that's because, I don't think that brands realize the impact, both positive and negative, on communities that they can have. You know, and a lot of the problems that we have in the world right now, particularly in London, are caused by brands.

Ryan Nell (13:59):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (13:59):
You know, and unfortunately, lots of them won't take responsibility for their actions. So I have a love hate relationship with the whole brand thing. But you know, obviously, you know, it's great when you first starting out, when you start an idea and then you get recognized by, you know, a major corporation. It's kind of, that's quite exciting. My advice to anyone...

Ryan Nell (14:21):
Mm, it's good for the ego...

Charlie Dark (14:21):
It's good for ego. You know, it definitely is great for the ego, particularly if you've grown up in kind of inner cities. You know, and you get to work with like the luxury bands that you've aspired, and have been told by society that those that are the brands that give you kudos — by wearing them, by being associated with them. When you then enter into relationships with them, it's kind of mindblowing for the ego. It's like: "I've made it".

Ryan Nell (14:45):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (14:46):
You know? But it is really hard. And some are easier to work with than others. My advice say to everyone is, you know, write down what your own personal brand values are. That will give you an idea of whether you really want to go and work with X, Y, Z.

Ryan Nell (15:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlie Dark (15:02):
And, but at the same time, sometimes you have to do a Robin Hood. You know, you have to kind of work with the devil, so that you can basically feed the poor. You have to do it.

Ryan Nell (15:11):
Exactly. You know, you're kind of, you're cleaning the money as it comes through.

Charlie Dark (15:15):
[Laughing]. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Ryan Nell (15:16):
That's a really, really super interesting thing to think about. I was thinking about that ego thing, and the confidence boost of, you know, working with someone massive. And the implied, what they're saying about you, when they get into that relationship...

Ryan Nell (15:32):
You were born to Ghanaian parents...

Charlie Dark (15:34):
Yes. I have got Ghanaian parents. Yes. They're also a blessing and a curse.

Ryan Nell (15:38):
It's a blessing and a curse?

Charlie Dark (15:40):
It's a blessing and a curse, depending on what day of the week it is. Most of the time it's a blessing. Sometimes it can definitely be... [Sighs]. Yeah, definitely. Culture! I think culturally being brought up in some situations can be really hard when you're trying to kind of push the boundaries of what you can and can't do.

Ryan Nell (15:57):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (15:58):
Definitely, when I was younger it was really hard. But in some ways, you know, it was a blessing because it meant you worked twice as hard to prove that, you know, this crazy idea, this out of the norm idea that you wanted to do would actually work. So, yeah [laughing].

Ryan Nell (16:13):
Yeah. And were your parents kind of encouraging of you pushing boundaries? Or was there a sense that kind of: "Why can't you just... keep a low profile?"

Charlie Dark (16:21):
Um yeah, I mean my mum has always been quite rebellious. She's the rebellious one of the family. So she's always... She pushed her own boundaries to get where she got to.

Ryan Nell (16:30):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (16:30):
I think with me... I think after she actually realized that: "This guy is really serious about this, and this is what he wants to do", then, you know, the encouragement always came. Definitely, when I was at school it was about academia is get as many A's as possible. B's are not allowed. You might as well leave the country you've got a C [laughing].

Ryan Nell (16:49):
Right, right, right. C was a serious conversation.

Charlie Dark (16:54):
C was a serious conversation [laughing]. But yeah, you know, coming back to your original point, you know, about the brands, it's kind of amazing when you go home and you're like, you know, "I'm working with the BBC or I'm working with the British Council, or I'm working with, you know, this sports brand, or that TV station and so forth. You know, you can see this kind of flicker in their eyes of: "OK. This is something we can call home and boast about". You know, it's cool. I think ultimately end of the day, I think parents just want you to do well.

Ryan Nell (17:23):
Hmm. Yeah.

Charlie Dark (17:23):
And I think one of the things I didn't realize when I was growing up is the amount of trauma that your parents have gone through, particularly if they've come from another country and resettled. And they come with these hopes and these dreams. And then they have children and they're raising children in a world that is ever-changing. And I think it's actually quite hard for them to basically accept the fact that this dream, this path that they've been working to lay out for you, is not the path that you're going to take.

Ryan Nell (17:53):
Yeah. And it's, and it's not your dream.

Charlie Dark (17:54):
And it's not your dream. Yeah. And I think there's a real kind of like shock. I was like, wow. You know? So I think, you know, again, these are lessons that I've learned from becoming a parent myself. Where my children do things, and I'm just like: "Why are they doing that?" Oh, because you did that as well. OK.

Ryan Nell (18:11):
Yeah. Really the common element is rebellion [laughing].

Charlie Dark (18:13):
The common element is rebellion, you know, rebellion all the way. I was definitely a rebellious child. Definitely. Definitely. I'm still rebellious now. Yeah.

Ryan Nell (18:22):
Yeah, I'm the son of immigrants, a little bit less exotic, but Dad came over from South Africa...

Charlie Dark (18:28):
Amazing. Where are you parents from?

Ryan Nell (18:28):
From Germany to South Africa to here. And Mum came from Ireland. So yeah that's a pretty short journey. But it was amazing seeing their different styles of parenting. My Dad, you know, he'd say himself, he wouldn't call himself a strict or authoritarian guy, but that's sort of his style. And then Mum was all nurturing, caring, you know, all about the storytelling and the rest of it. But you know, the more I learn, the more I realize they were massively rebelling against what their parents kind of did for them in their time. So...

Charlie Dark (18:58):
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But you never think about that actually. It's like when I hang out with my kids, and there's always a comment about what I'm wearing. There's always like: "What are you wearing Dad?" That's always one thing. And then the second thing is kind of...

Ryan Nell (19:12):
What do they want you in like, a V-neck or something [laughing]?

Charlie Dark (19:13):
Well they just want me in a... Kind of yeah. They want me in a gray tracksuit. V-Neck. Very plain. But there is definitely this thing where they're just like, they don't believe I was ever a teenager. And that's really funny. When they do things and you're like: "Well, I know what you're doing. I was a teenager, I did exactly the same thing". And they just can't imagine you not being their dad. That's really funny. So it's funny when you meet people, you know me from, you know, even music days are running and they're kind of talking to me and not talking to me like a dad. You kind of look down and your kids are looking at you like: "What is...? These two are really weird"![Laughing].

Ryan Nell (19:48):
Oh man. Yeah. Actually it's got to be good for them to see that though. You know?

Charlie Dark (19:52):
I think they're just immensely embarrassed by it. They just think I'm this guy. It's just like, "Why can't we just have a normal dad"? Sorry. You won't understand now, but you will understand soon. Hopefully.

Ryan Nell (20:03):
Yeah. And what's their mum do?

Charlie Dark (20:06):
Their mum teaches design and technology in school. She's like a big graphic head. Yeah. She's like the big kind of... I'm the music guy. They're the graphic people. Both of [our kids] played music, both of them play instruments. One of them is really into photography, one of them wants to be a pro gamer. And yeah, I've got pretty cool kids. They turned out pretty well. I'm quite happy with them. Really happy. I'm very, I'm really proud of them and they, they're doing well. They don't give me any trouble at all. You know, so...

Charlie Dark (20:39):
But again, you know, it's difficult because you are trying to kind of nurture them, whilst at the same time introducing them to the world, whilst at the same time keeping them safe. And at the same time allowing them freedom and allowing them to make their own decisions. And no one gives you a blueprint for being a father is kind of, that's really weird...

Ryan Nell (20:56):
Yeah, yeah.

Charlie Dark (20:56):
I just thought that it would be like the movies. And it's so not like the movies at all. Really not...

Ryan Nell (21:03):
The movies are like those edited highlights. The dad said just the right thing...

Charlie Dark (21:09):
At just the right time [laughing]. Yeah. It's really weird. Yeah.

Ryan Nell (21:14):
What do you wish that you knew then that you know now? You know, when you were starting out as a father? What would have been helpful?

Charlie Dark (21:18):
Wow, that's a good question. I wish that I had done my yoga teacher training before I became a father. One I would have had something to help me cope with the change. Secondly, I think doing my yoga teacher training, just changed my mind state completely.

Ryan Nell (21:40):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (21:42):
And I just wish I had that mind state coming into it, because when you're having kids, you know and you are involved in the creative industries... You see your friends, and they're coming down to the events and the gallery openings, and they've got the kids and all dressed up in all the cool gear. And they're like sleeping, and you think: "Oh man, it's gonna be really cool. I'm going to get these two little mates and am just going to walk around town with them, and be really cool". And then they arrive, and it's kind of not like that. And you just realize the sleep deprivation, no matter how many midnight, or late night, or all night DJ sets you've ever done in your life, nothing prepares you. The sleep deprivation is so unreal. It's crazy. And also just this idea of responsibility that comes when you have children and there's a really weird day where you suddenly realize that these small people who you helped make, actually think that you know what you're doing. And they're looking for you for guidance and you've got no idea.

Ryan Nell (22:37):
Mm, yeah.

Charlie Dark (22:38):
So a classic... You know? A classic, classic thing is the first time you have mice. Kids are all running around the house. My missus is running around the house. Everyone's running around and everyone's looking at you like: "Batman, superhero, da da da da! He's going to come and say the day! Come on Daddy, you're going to take care of the mess. You're going to get rid of the mice, you're going to do the thing!" And you're just sitting there like: My God, I'm terrified of mice and I don't know, I actually don't know what to do. And everyone here thinks I know what to do. And that's kind of, you know, it's a series of these things that happen where kind of... Tire breaks down on the car and then everyone's like: "It's OK, 'cause Daddy's going to go sort it out". And you're just like: "Argh, I don't know how to change a car tire"! I know how to program a drum machine...

Ryan Nell (23:22):
[Laughing].

Charlie Dark (23:22):
So I wish I was more practical. There's loads of things, you know, that, that I wish that I knew.

Ryan Nell (23:29):
Yeah, you get a bit of practice looking after younger folk doing Run Dem Crew and kind of building that community?

Charlie Dark (23:35):
Yeah. But it's different. It's really, really different growing, you know, your kids from, they've just arrived through kind of toddler years... school, you know, to Run Dem. By the time they get to... Run Dem has its different challenges. It's kind of weird because I think when people arrive at Run Dem, when young people arrive at Run Dem, they're looking for help. You know, they've arrived at that point where they're like: "I need some help in my life and I've heard that you or this organization can help me, so I'm going to be open".

Charlie Dark (24:06):
When it's your own kids. It's just a natural thing to rebel against what your dad is telling you you should be doing. It's kind of: "Why am I going to do that?" And so I've just really just come to the thing now where it used to really kind of worry me and now I just kind of, I'm just relaxed. I'm just like, "Cool, great, brilliant... You don't do your homework? All right, amazing. Brilliant. Cool. Let's see how that goes for you"!

Ryan Nell (24:29):
Let's see how that goes for you [laughing].

Charlie Dark (24:29):
Yeah [laughing]. Because then like two days later you get the call: "Like dad, I got detention". Like: "Oh really? Okay, cool. We'll see how that goes for you".

Ryan Nell (24:34):
Let's join the dots [laughing].

Charlie Dark (24:36):
Yeah. It's kind of like one of those things where... It's like anything. Like having to be angry, with a situation where you're actually kind of like: "I can understand why you did that. So I'm actually not that angry, but society is telling me that I kind of have to be firm with you right now".

Ryan Nell (24:53):
Right. Yeah.

Charlie Dark (24:53):
But really I'd just be like: "OK, you know, don't do it again". So there's always this push and pull. Because I always remember kids at school who had those super relaxed parents. You'd go round there and it was like they could come in and out whenever they wanted to, you'd walk into their bedroom and they'd kind of graffitti'd the whole room. It was like, you know...

Ryan Nell (25:09):
Yeah, yeah. What are they like now?

Charlie Dark (25:10):
They would never eat what their parents were eating. It's kind of, there was always people sleeping over or living there. I just always wondered like what are they doing now? Actually, they probably married and have got 2.5 children, and they've kind of gone really corporate. In fact, most of the ones I know, who were super rebellious — that's actually what they did.

Ryan Nell (25:29):
Yeah. It's weird that. They're looking for more boundaries than they had.

Charlie Dark (25:32):
Exactly [laughing].

Ryan Nell (25:33):
Yeah. Well I think the truth, as far as I've been able to work out, is that you can't get it right. So —

Charlie Dark (25:38):
Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And I think one, you know, one thing that yoga has taught me, is not to focus so much on things that haven't happened. Not to worry myself about things in the past that I cannot change. And just to enjoy the now. And that's been a real mental shift in my whole being. It's been really cool. And that's one of the things I say to people, who come down to the yoga studio. It's kind of like: "It isn't really about the shapes that you make with your body. It is about how it makes you feel". But there's this thing, if you can capture this thing of kind of just taking each day as it comes, and enjoying the day for what it is, you know, then some magic could happen.

Ryan Nell (26:16):
Yeah. That's beautiful.

Charlie Dark (26:17):
Yeah. That's kind of my thing. But you know, it's hard. I don't know how you find, do you find it easy to get people into the meditation studio?

Ryan Nell (26:24):
Yes and no. You know, they've come in their hundreds. That's been nice. For the ego! But I'm obviously trying to get the ego out of the way. But I think they've overcome all kinds of resistance to getting through the door in the first place. Sometimes I felt like Catholic priest...

Charlie Dark (26:40):
Yeah [laughing].

Charlie Dark (26:41):
It's like a confessional we have to go through first, you know, people telling me about — whether they have they got label for it, like: "I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I'm on these pills or those pills or whatever, I lost someone, broke up with someone" ... something's going on. Then then there's another subset. Who are just curious explorers, honestly doing it as a bit of almost entertainment. The people kind of really need it, are the ones who stick around. And that's amazing, because then I get to see them go on a bit of journey. And I suppose a bit like you, I'm always trying to get across that I'm not living like a totally mindful existence.

Charlie Dark (27:19):
Yeah I know [laughing]. That's really funny! Yeah.

Ryan Nell (27:21):
I'm not meditating my way through my days. Mostly I'm, you know, running around like a blue arsed fly. Just going: "Argh! How am I going to get it all done"?

Charlie Dark (27:31):
Just buy more beads. Buy more beads and incense and stuff like that.

Ryan Nell (27:35):
All of that stuff helps [laughing]. It kind of gets you in the mood, but —

Charlie Dark (27:38):
Have you heard RZA's meditation album?

Ryan Nell (27:41):
No.

Charlie Dark (27:42):
Okay. So that's my tip for you to check out. So RZA from Wu Tang Clan has done an album about meditation. So go listen to it on your streaming service.

Ryan Nell (27:52):
Ah, nice. No way! Yeah, I will do, on my 'streaming service of choice'.

Charlie Dark (27:55):
It's actually, and it's really... I've been talking to a few meditation teachers about it. I'm really interested to know what they think. Because it's actually, you know, as an entry level, "I've never meditated before", it's kind of really interesting that there are these people, who are kind of really unlikely people, are getting into meditation now. And that's why I'd be like, you know, really, really like... I'd love to be become a meditation teacher. I'd love to. I'll talk to you about that later.

Ryan Nell (28:22):
Yeah. Oh man, I get a lot out of it and I'm always saying to people like: "I don't have anything to teach you". I mean I do have something to teach, but we're trying to unlearn a lifetime of bad habits. You know, so if it's a — well, there are new arrivals, right? Like there's always new, you know, Netflix wasn't around. Now it is. Now it takes so much of my time. I shouldn't say that, but it's true.

Charlie Dark (28:48):
It's funny actually. Because I was thinking about that actually, because I've just binge-watched Hunters. And I was just thinking to myself, like back in the day, there was no way that you would just sit down and watch like 25 episodes of EastEnders back to back to back to back to back to back to back... Impossible — you just wouldn't do it. It's just really weird now...

Ryan Nell (29:08):
EastEnders was sandwiched by something less good.

Charlie Dark (29:11):
I think it's really interesting how time has become such a precious commodity now. And how it's taken up by so much stuff that wasn't there before. Like I took myself to the theater this week in the afternoon and that was a real like 'thing'.

Ryan Nell (29:27):
Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie Dark (29:27):
I kind of felt really rebellious doing that. And it was just kind of, you know, I just think I really wish I remembered pre Netflix, pre MySpace, pre-internet. Just like, what were people doing pre mobile phones? Like, what were people doing? I guess you don't remember. You know, I kind of, will have times where I go and spend like an hour deep diving YouTube, kind of getting really obscure. And I just think to myself: like what was my equivalent of that before? Probably actually I was just spending large amount of times in the studio. Right now you can kind of like do your pre studio before you're in the studio. You know, it's kind of weird. Yeah.

Ryan Nell (30:04):
Yeah. I mean I used to, I used to read a lot. I've got a lot of books here, but now they're just... They're like the decorations, you know?

Charlie Dark (30:11):
Yeah.

Ryan Nell (30:11):
And I keep on acquiring them, because I'm a bit of a hoarder. But yeah, the time for reading, seems like it's so precious.

Charlie Dark (30:18):
Yeah. It's weird with books actually, because even, I always feel like if I'm, if I read a book — if I listen to an audio book, I feel that I don't absorb it as much, as reading it. But then there's always this thing of like: "where am I going to put the book"? Now I just buy books and read them and give them away.

Ryan Nell (30:33):
Yeah. That's nice man.

Charlie Dark (30:36):
Yeah, I'm trying to, well, you know, my missus is kind of real like: "Okay, so you've got seven copies of Ian Fleming 'Moonraker', first edition to the latest. You don't need all of them. You need to get rid of them"!

Ryan Nell (30:49):
That's probably good for you.

Charlie Dark (30:50):
It's probably good. Yeah. But I do like a first edition book. It's funny actually, I think once you start getting rid of things, once the flood gates open, it's quite easy. I think it's quite easy.

Ryan Nell (31:00):
Yeah. I did a massive clear out a couple of years ago, kind of a lot of bags, bin bags to charity —

Charlie Dark (31:06):
It's very tidy here.

Ryan Nell (31:07):
Right.

Charlie Dark (31:08):
I mean I suppose as a meditation teacher, I suppose it has to be zen?

Ryan Nell (31:11):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (31:12):
Do you find though, when the space that you're in is crowded, that your head feels crowded?

Ryan Nell (31:18):
Yeah. But my head has no problems crowding itself. You put me in a cave and it would be complicated somehow. Have you found this stuff with mindfulness, with yoga? Has that been helpful for your own sanity?

Charlie Dark (31:34):
It's been the best thing I've ever introduced to my life. And I can't believe that it took me so long to actually find out about it. And then to accept it into my life. Obviously when you do your yoga teacher training, it's kind of, you know, it starts with the hardcore meditation. They've got you in there. It's like half six in the morning, it's freezing in the studio and you're meditating, and you know, they deep dive you in. Well, I just found, for me, I just had this really weird epiphany one day. I was just like: Dude, this is like the best drugs in the world ever. And it's free"!

Ryan Nell (32:10):
No come down.

Charlie Dark (32:11):
And there's no come down and I can access it at any time. And it's inside my body. How do I not know about this? It was like a real thing where I was just like: Oh man it's amazing! It's amazing. And again, I feel quite empowered. By taking time out of the day to go and meditate. I feel really kind of like... I still haven't learnt how to take a good meditation picture though...

Ryan Nell (32:36):
It can't be done.

Charlie Dark (32:38):
It can't be done [laughing].

Ryan Nell (32:38):
I've got a few photographers. Someone wants to like film me, film me teaching, and I'm like: "You do understand I'm going to be sitting still with my eyes closed?"

Charlie Dark (32:49):
Close your eyes. Make love to the camera. Right. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. Meditation is like, how did you get into meditation?

Ryan Nell (32:57):
Yeah. So pretty poor mental health...

Charlie Dark (33:01):
Okay. Yeah.

Ryan Nell (33:02):
I was thinking, all right. You know, I had a successful advertising career but I was battling anxiety... lots of hiding in the hiding in the loo at work. Right. You got like a thousand people on the floor and they're all super kind of alpha types, like very, very extroverted. I'm very extroverted, but then I've got this shier side as well that manifested in me. Yeah. Literally kind of like running to the loo to chill out in there until I felt like I could face the world again.

Charlie Dark (33:34):
Yeah.

Ryan Nell (33:34):
And you know, so I was doing all the wrong things actually. Cause there's, I was sort of escaping it rather than dealing with it. But yeah, so I started doing a bit of mindfulness and meditation and CBT, and of all the things I tried, [meditation] was the one that I loved, I felt like I could do on my own. And yeah, it's more like not meditating, than meditating. I kept on going back to that career and yeah, it took a while before I was, like, "I'm going to start my own thing and it's going to be a meditation studio. I'm going to try and kind of democratize it". So it isn't the way that Headspace democratized it, but it's like "in the real". Because there's something kind of qualitatively different about it. I mean, I think it's amazing, you know, sitting on a cushion and meditating.

Charlie Dark (34:21):
Yep.

Ryan Nell (34:21):
Your eyes are closed, but I think the point of it is to connect. My little working theory, very not original, just stolen from other people really, is that you know what we think of as spirituality? Well everyone's going to have a different answer for that one, but we want it to be really complicated. It's going to involve slaying some dragons and covering some serious ground before you get there. I kind of had this hunch that cats, animals are... Okay, they are spiritual — they've got what we want. And it's not more complicated. It's simpler. Being in touch with their bodies and their emotions and, you know, if they're hungry, they're hungry, if they're tired, they're tired. So that's what I mean by trying to kind of unteach people and connect to our bodies, but I think also connect to the people around us.

Charlie Dark (35:13):
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Ryan Nell (35:14):
So the more I did it the more kind of connected I felt, and specifically doing it with people, well that's how we ended up here.

Charlie Dark (35:21):
Yeah. Yeah. It's cool, man. That's really cool.

Ryan Nell (35:24):
You talk a lot about a one mile circle, like drawing a one mile circle around your house.

Charlie Dark (35:31):
Yes.

Ryan Nell (35:32):
What's that about? Where's, where's that come from?

Charlie Dark (35:34):
It's just this idea that if you draw a one mile circle around your house and you, then you kind of have a look into that circle and see what within that circle you can serve and help. I think interesting things start to happen. So I think it's really interesting, like particularly one of the classic things we get with people who, you know, they move into an area that's been gentrified...

Ryan Nell (36:00):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (36:01):
They don't realize that they're part of the problem (of the gentrification) and then don't know any of their neighbors or any of the people who were displaced. But the fact that, you know, they've moved into the area.

Ryan Nell (36:12):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (36:13):
And then there's this weird kind of like thing where they live in the area, but yeah really they live in a house in the area. They don't live in the area. It's kind of an island. they've made. My thing is always just kind of, you know, draw a circle around your house a mile, you know, find out where the nearest school is. Get your CRB checks and go down to offer some time and help. You know if you've got kids who were hanging about in the neighborhood. Make them some cakes. Yeah, they're probably hungry. You know, if you've got some old ladies in your road, you go and buy them some flowers.

Charlie Dark (36:52):
I just think that lots of people say that they feel lonely and they feel displaced. Then they, you know, they feel disconnected but they're actually not doing any of the things that you need to do to connect with their neighborhood. So, really simple thing: the next time you go into the shop to pay for your stuff, put the money in the person's hand and see their reaction, see what happens. Like really small things like that.

Ryan Nell (37:20):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (37:21):
A smile. How are you opening the door for someone as they come into the corner shop? You know, it's just kind of, I just feel really small things that you can do. And if one did, these small little things then you know... So my thing is if, if everyone did a mile, then that scene kind of grows into like a bigger kind of circle of influence and yeah.

Ryan Nell (37:38):
Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Charlie Dark (37:40):
I'm just old school, like I just, I guess...

Ryan Nell (37:41):
It is old school, but we need to bring it back.

Charlie Dark (37:46):
We do need to bring back, but I think when I was growing up in South London and I'd say was landlocked. To a mile area, you know, the boundary was my school and then you know, the other boundary was the market and those were the two... So I just had to explore everything in between those boundaries because I wasn't allowed to stray beyond them. So that's I guess where it came from...

Ryan Nell (38:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlie Dark (38:08):
You know. Know your area inside out.

Ryan Nell (38:09):
Yeah. Yeah. We had a street party here, like last summer.

Charlie Dark (38:14):
Amazing.

Ryan Nell (38:15):
It was, it was amazing, but it was terrible as well. It was like some kind of apartheid.

Charlie Dark (38:20):
Yeah.

Ryan Nell (38:21):
It was a street over, like, you know, the end of the street, like kind of swung into action, put all the bunting up and and the stalls and you know, it was very sweet. They'd grown pot plants and they kind of, you know, like come and get pot plant and the rest of it, and games for kids and whatever. And then there was like a barbecue up at the other end. But no bunting. And I was like "what's with the bunting"? And they said "Oh, well we, we told them it was going to be down this end of the road"!

Charlie Dark (38:50):
Ah OK, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Nell (38:53):
But you could see the message that people got. It was bonkers!

Charlie Dark (38:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think as well, the thing about gentrification is like, it's coming, it's here, it's coming to, you know, it's sweeping through the world. And I think that actually people almost need to be taught how to interact. With each other again, you know, because it's kind of what's really, I think is really interesting is like whenever you go into a place where you feel like you're intimidated by being in that place, what you have to understand is that those people are intimidated by your presence as well. Yeah. And so at some point you have to find a middle ground. And some discussion.

Ryan Nell (39:27):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (39:28):
You know, and then it's kind of, you know, and then I think it's really amazing what happens as a result of that. But I think one of the problems that's happened, is there are no longer these spaces where people can come together. To do something.

Ryan Nell (39:40):
Right yeah.

Charlie Dark (39:42):
And so, you know, I grew up in warehouse party, rave culture, which was all about, you know, we all love music. So we're going to find this big space, the biggest space we can find and about as many people as we can to share this experience. It doesn't really happen anymore now. Well where do you... I mean it probably it does, but it happens under corporate matters. So I think it's a bit different. You know, I think it's really, really different.

Ryan Nell (40:10):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I went to print works the other day and it was, I still try to keep like a hand in things, but...

Charlie Dark (40:18):
Yeah. Who'd you go see?

Ryan Nell (40:19):
DJ Koze...

Charlie Dark (40:21):
The drum and bass DJ. Ah OK cool.

Ryan Nell (40:21):
And Floating points and Max Cooper, very kind of credible... Ah, man, it was amazing. It was amazing. But the getting there, I was like this whole corporate experience. It was, yeah, it was crazy, you know? Queuing for an hour, to get to a very intense search. And then you're in and then you're queuing for lockers for another hour.

Charlie Dark (40:45):
Yeah. Yeah [laughing].

Ryan Nell (40:45):
And thinking "why did I bring my bag"?

Charlie Dark (40:46):
Yeah. And Printworks is like a long tunnel as well. It's kind of a bit of an odd venue.

Ryan Nell (40:52):
But yeah, I did, and by the end of the night I felt very kind of connected. There's 3000 people in the room. Yeah, it's, it's rare and I think that maybe there's something kind of going on where what our families and villages would have done for us is now, well it's not there because we we've all atomized.

Charlie Dark (41:09):
Yep.

Ryan Nell (41:09):
But we haven't entirely lost it because we are surrounding ourselves with people we love. Right. You know, so kind of like almost building our own families.

Charlie Dark (41:16):
Yeah. But I, I think, we're quite blessed in that we are surrounding our selves with people we love and we are surrounded by people we love. A lot of people don't have that. No. You know, and I think...

Ryan Nell (41:29):
And that's the cozy bubble, isn't it really?

Charlie Dark (41:31):
I think, I don't think it's necessarily people doing it by choice. I just think it's one of those things that can happen. Because obviously the thing with social media is kind of, you take it for granted that everyone's okay because you see the highlight reel, you know, so you don't really know what's really going on.

Ryan Nell (41:47):
Well I like that in your social media you are vulnerable.

Charlie Dark (41:50):
Oh yeah. I have to be. Because you know, after a while. I mean, I think that what happened to me is after I kind of had the big kind of major label record company DJ experience. Yeah. The burning emerging from that kind of the embers of that just meant that I just thought this next time around, I'm just going to lay it all on the line. And then once you realize that people actually listening to what you've got to say and really following what you say right, then you realize that you have a responsibility to be vulnerable.

Ryan Nell (42:22):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (42:22):
You got to show people what's really going down. So one of my things at the moment, particularly with Instagram. Just because my mental health is in a weird place at the moment, maybe cause I'm, you know, I'm gonna be 50 this year, which is amazing. But at the same time it's a bit like, "Oh my God'!

Ryan Nell (42:40):
Like how did that happen?

Charlie Dark (42:41):
Well, it's not even that you just start thinking to yourself, "OK, so hold on a minute. So I'm going to be 50. I might need to really start thinking about what I'm actually doing, what I'm going to be doing. You know, because you know you talk to people that are like 20, and they're like, you know, they don't have to think about this stuff...

Ryan Nell (43:00):
No.

Charlie Dark (43:00):
When you get to my age you kind of think about it. But then also, so one of my things is not really kind of using the social media. You know, I'm not posting every day anymore and you know, haven't been really been on Instagram stories with myself on there. Just kind of just trying to protect my self a little bit more. Cause there's also, I had a stalker for two years... That was really weird as well, that kind of threw things.

Ryan Nell (43:26):
Oh sh*t.

Charlie Dark (43:26):
You know, that was kind of a bit like "this is really annoying. Just like stop being annoying"! And then also that weird thing where you see people and you don't know them but they know you and they know everything about you. Yeah. It just kind of starts to freak you out after a while. A bit like, "Yeah. It's a bit spooky"! It's just like, ah, okay. Yeah maybe I need to be... It's a double edged sword.

Charlie Dark (43:51):
I think it's a really hard one, because obviously there are people who kind of, they rinse their social media.

Ryan Nell (43:55):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (43:55):
And they, you know, they're highly successful as a result. And then there are the people, you know, like Burial, [who] ghost, don't see them at all. I think it's weird. You know, it's just hard to kind of find your space.

Ryan Nell (44:08):
Ah, it's really, really hard. Yeah.

Charlie Dark (44:10):
Yeah, really hard to find your space. You know, there's definitely been a lot of umm, I think when you're self employed as well, you don't hide in the office... You hide in your own toilet, you don't hide in your office toilet, you know?

Ryan Nell (44:21):
Right, right, right!

Charlie Dark (44:21):
But I think it's, yeah, vulnerability. I've always been kind of, you know, a vulnerable person. I think it's one of my superpowers. I definitely was one, you know, one of the first people to start talking publicly about mental health. I can remember kind of, you know, I was with the sports brand who shall not be mentioned, and kind of woke up one day and was just like, "you know what, I kind of don't really feel great and I'm going to tell the world I don't feel great". And then went to sleep, woke up and then the world had kind of been like, "Oh my God, I can't believe he talked about mental health publicly". That's like yeah it was, why would you? [laughing]

Ryan Nell (44:55):
Yeah, yeah, we need more people to do it.

Charlie Dark (44:57):
We do. But then, I think what's happened now is it's kind of become a bit kind of like a social currency. It's like I've seen that and I've got mental health. Yeah. Well, okay. You know, it was like, so I think it's almost swung the opposite way.

Ryan Nell (45:11):
Yeah. It's like a pendulum...

Charlie Dark (45:13):
Yeah it's like a pendulum swinging from left to right. It's kind of really, you know...

Ryan Nell (45:16):
It's kind of it's hard to get right. But I think somehow you manage to you know, I suppose you can't go wrong with being authentic. Unless you have very, very objectionable views, you know?

Charlie Dark (45:28):
That's it! Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's funny cause having children will keep you authentic. Because yeah, they are so, particularly when they become teenagers, they're so unimpressed. By things that would previously would make your ego go out of control. I was on a billboard. Yeah, I did a thing for Bumble Biz. I was on a massive billboard. Yeah I was in Peckham, I was in Shoreditch, it was all over the place. I was with my kids, I took them down. They're like, you know, "I'm going to go see the thing. Big surprise"! My daughter was just like, "Oh, is that it? Yeah, anyway, what are we going to have for dinner?

Ryan Nell (46:02):
[laughing]

Charlie Dark (46:05):
I know it was really funny actually, cause I just had a moment where I was just like, "yeah, I guess. Yeah. Cool. That's it. Onward and forward we go"! So you know, it's good.

Ryan Nell (46:18):
So now. I want to be mindful of your time cause...

Charlie Dark (46:20):
I've got time, it's cool. It's cool.

Ryan Nell (46:23):
Well I want to ask you, having just said that you want to be a bit more guarded I suppose about what goes out on social media. Well the same goes for podcasts, doesn't it? Is there something you wish people knew about you, you know, that you didn't have to keep on saying?

Charlie Dark (46:41):
I mean, I... I wish that people understood despite the fact of what I do, you know, and I'm kind of outgoing and quite a gregarious person, you know, I'm still quite shy, definitely. I still have imposter syndrome. You know, it's definitely I walk into situations and I think, "Oh my God, these people think I know what I'm talking about and they're going to pay me for me to tell them what I'm talking about and I actually don't know what I'm talking about or I don't think I'm qualified to tell them". I still have that. I have fears, you know, I'm struggling with masculinity. I think in the present is hard, you know. Like I'm not like some super alpha male type of dude. That is not me. Yeah. At the same time, I'm not kind of, you know, the opposite spectrum. So trying to find your place in the middle is hard.

Ryan Nell (47:24):
Yeah.

New Speaker (47:26):
I think actually one of the things that people don't realize is when you have these ideas at your kitchen table and then they grow into these big things, it's a large amount of pressure to kind of keep turning up for it and keep being there for people and to keep trying to evolve it and to keep trying to protect it as well. And I think that's really... I just think people, in fact, I know people just don't understand the conversations that you have that are offline that they will never know about and the extent that you have to go to, to maintain an organization this big and to keep everyone happy. Yeah, it's really, really hard because you're dealing with a large amount of egos.

Ryan Nell (48:09):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (48:09):
And you know, the one thing about running is, you know, once you run any form of distance, your ego is immediately inflated because you've just done this thing of wonder. It's kind of, "Oh yeah, you just ran 26 miles. Go and take the rubbish out"! "I'm not taking the rubbish out, I just ran 26 miles. What are you talking about"? You know, it's kind of, you know, it's really hard to kind of deal... and still have to show up and have that enthusiasm for it. You know, because you're the one leading.

Ryan Nell (48:39):
Yeah. How do you recharge?

Charlie Dark (48:42):
Well, one of the things that I've been doing to recharge is trying to fall back in love with the things that I was into when I had the freedom to fall in love with things.

Ryan Nell (48:53):
Right right right. Yeah.

Charlie Dark (48:53):
So retracing things I was into when I was a teenager when I didn't really have any responsibility and getting back into kind of reading books and reading comics and hunting for records and going to the theatre and kind of, you know, just the kind of things I would do when I was in my teens and I didn't have a mortgage and kids and Run Dem Crew and responsibilities, and I was just deejaying in my bedroom and that was cool. And you know, learning to dream again. And part of this new put it I'm working on is about kind of rediscovering things that make me happy and not having to share them with the world. That's another one as well. Yeah. And if I think back now, I mean I love the fact the impact that Run Dem Crew has had but actually there are some days where I wish, I wish I'd never told anyone about this.

Ryan Nell (49:45):
Mm. Because then you wouldn't have to do it...

Charlie Dark (49:48):
Well it's not so that you wouldn't have to do it, but you wouldn't have to basically do it to the extent that I have to do it.

Ryan Nell (49:54):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (49:54):
Cause I'm responsible for a large amount of people. Yeah. And you know, on the good days, that's great. But there are some days where you just like, actually, you know, I'm really trying to focus on myself right now. And I don't have the brain capacity to focus on, you know... But because I've created this situation in this movement, I have responsibility to basically be there... You know, once you turn it on it's very difficult to turn it off. Hmm. That's a good question though.

Ryan Nell (50:20):
Like the Queen, it's a job for life. Yeah.

Charlie Dark (50:22):
Exactly. I don't like mice. Petrified of mice.

Ryan Nell (50:26):
[laughing]

Charlie Dark (50:26):
I'm absolutely petrified of mice, we've got building work going on at our house at the moment in the houses on either side of us. So just like, and so you're like, you just suddenly randomly... I'm sitting there watching TV, mouse just runs across in front of me. The dog did not move at all! In fact, he looked at me to be like, "what are you gonna go and do about that"?

Ryan Nell (50:44):
[laughing]

Charlie Dark (50:49):
It's like, "I don't know what I'm going to do"! So um, but yeah, that's a good question. I mean, there's so many things. I just think people don't understand as well when you've grown up in the Bermuda triangle and I call it that, you know, I went to a very posh private school.

Ryan Nell (51:03):
Mhm.

Charlie Dark (51:04):
My parents are from Ghana. Most of my friends growing up were from Jamaica... Trying to find yourself in that triangle of who you are. It was really, really hard. You know, like, "who am I"? I know who everyone else wants me to be. "Who am I"? That was, you know, really hard. And it's still to this day, something that I struggle with just trying to, you know, be me.

Ryan Nell (51:27):
Yeah. Well those clues might be in and those things that you loved doing when you were a kid, before all the responsibilities came in.

Charlie Dark (51:33):
Yeah.

Ryan Nell (51:34):
This Canadian [originally Hungarian] doctor Gabor Maté. I don't know if you have come across him on YouTube?I'll send you a link, he's awesome. But he talks about addiction but he's kind of, he's got a very kind of broad definition of it. And it is anything that you keep on doing that causes you to disconnect a little bit and then you keep on doing it even though it's caused that disconnection. And so he's got this interesting take, firstly that we're all addicts. Whether there are any substances or anything involved, we're all addicted to something. But that recovery is really about recovering your young self.

Charlie Dark (52:08):
Ooooh, I like that!

Ryan Nell (52:09):
Little Charlie who never actually went anywhere. You just disconnected from him a little bit along the way.

Charlie Dark (52:15):
That's good. I like that. Recovering who you were before. Yeah. I always say that, like when you come out of a bad relationship, rather than spending time crying actually spend some time rediscovering who you were before you go into the relationship.

Ryan Nell (52:25):
Yeah. Yeah, that's true [laughing].

Charlie Dark (52:26):
That's always a good thing [laughing].

Ryan Nell (52:31):
Alright! Before this gets too deep, do you have anything you want to plug?

Charlie Dark (52:36):
No, not at all.

Ryan Nell (52:37):
That's refreshing!

Charlie Dark (52:37):
I mean, I, if anything, no, not at all. You know, I just, one thing I've realized, I kind of went into yoga. When I retrained to become a yoga teacher, I kind of went in there like, "Right, I'm going to remix the wellness world and I'm going to remix yoga. I'm going to strip it apart and put it back together and I'm going to take it to the people who really need it and I'm going to Run Dem-ify yoga. Well, exactly what I did to running is what I'm going to go and do it with yoga...

Ryan Nell (53:01):
Anti-running anti-yoga.

Charlie Dark (53:03):
And actually what I've realized is people will just come to it when they are ready. There's effort required to take it to the people and you can create those situations. But the interesting thing, particularly now, you can create all these situations to try and reach the people that you're trying to reach. They will only come when they are ready.

Ryan Nell (53:22):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (53:22):
And that's okay. Yeah. Cause that would have used to just really freaked me out. I'd be like, "man, you know, I trained to become a yoga teacher to kind of take it to the people, but the people aren't coming. Why is that? What can I do"?

Ryan Nell (53:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlie Dark (53:34):
No, I just realized "it's just relaxed, they're going to come when they come. So with Run Dem, you know? I've got friends who every time I see them, say "yeah man, I'm coming Run Dem next time. I'm going to come, I'm going to come"! And I'm like, "It's 14 years now. No, you're not coming"!

Ryan Nell (53:48):
Yeah [laughing]. Right yeah.

Charlie Dark (53:48):
And that's okay. Yeah. That's okay. I've got nothing to plug, you know, if anything, one of my reasons why I wanted to do this show is that I think that meditation is really important. I think it's something that everyone should be doing. I think it's a skill that should be accessible to everyone.

Ryan Nell (54:08):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (54:09):
And so by doing this, I'm hoping that, you know, people who follow me, who don't know any of this stuff, who are like, "I'm not running, I'm definitely not doing the yoga"! Actually sitting in their house on the cushion, might do them some good.

Ryan Nell (54:22):
"That I can manage"!

Charlie Dark (54:23):
Yeah. They can manage. And that's, you know, and that's okay. You know, it's funny, I was actually thinking about this. Like if I was starting Run Dem Crew now. What would it be like?

New Speaker (54:33):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (54:34):
And I actually thought to myself, "it probably wouldn't be a running crew, you know, it would be a new organization that did lots of different things that were good for you".

Ryan Nell (54:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlie Dark (54:47):
It definitely was nice when I started Run Dem. I was just so blown away by the impact that running had on me that I thought that was all you needed.

Ryan Nell (54:56):
It's like a cure.

Charlie Dark (54:57):
Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, the more you start getting into, you know, wellness and wellbeing, you suddenly realize that running is just one very small component of all this other stuff that you could be doing.

Ryan Nell (55:10):
Yeah.

Charlie Dark (55:10):
Well, you know, that's my thing.

Ryan Nell (55:11):
Amen to that. Yeah. Same with same with meditation. Brilliant. If you're meditating, but if you're not moving and you're not eating well then yeah...

Charlie Dark (55:19):
Yeah, you're just going to be an unhealthy meditator.

Charlie Dark (55:25):
What's the most about people that you've ever done a session for?

Ryan Nell (55:27):
I had 75 people in a room. Yeah, a big kind of corporate client ad agency, but it felt good actually. It felt good to kind of go, it's terrifying personally, I used to be so scared of public speaking, so getting in front of a crowd like that. It's like, "Oh my God"! But good to kind of go back into this industry that I thought I never wanted to step through the doors again. Kind of go back wearing a different hat.

Charlie Dark (55:51):
Yeah.

Ryan Nell (55:52):
You know, I've got something of value. It was cool. Yeah.

Charlie Dark (55:55):
Yeah. That's cool. Hmm. I did a thing in Australia with this guy called Manoj Diaz. He's like one of the Lululemon...

Ryan Nell (56:03):
Yeah, yeah.

Charlie Dark (56:04):
... meditation guys. With KAWS the artist. Underneath the KAWS statue. It was two to three hundred people turned up, but it was like, it was, it was really weird. It was kind of, it was really interesting actually just kind of meditating with that amount of people.

Ryan Nell (56:19):
That's amazing.

Charlie Dark (56:20):
It was like really, really cool. And then obviously it was, you know, in conjunction with the KAWS exhibition. There were loads of people who came, not because they wanted to meditate at all, but because they want it to be first in line for the shop. Meditation was the price of entry, but they got really into it as well. And that was really cool.

Ryan Nell (56:38):
That's amazing. I think you know, the more I see what you're doing, there's so much kind of cross pollination going on that the running and the yoga and the music and all the community stuff that kind of goes around it.

Charlie Dark (56:52):
Yeah. I mean, I think I'm in a good space. I'm lucky.

Ryan Nell (56:57):
It's inspiring, man. Keep doing what you do.

Charlie Dark (56:59):
Keep doing what you're doing. I mean, I love it when people come and speak to me about ideas and then you see them actually go in and do them. And bring them to life. And that's really, you know, this your whole journey. I've, I've been like, this guy is going to open a meditation studio in deep South London. "Okay. We'll see how that goes"! But it's been really interesting to see, you know, to see it coming together.

Ryan Nell (57:21):
Thanks man.

Charlie Dark (57:22):
Really, really cool.

Ryan Nell (57:23):
Appreciate that. Appreciate that.

Charlie Dark (57:24):
Right.

Ryan Nell (57:26):
So I want to say a big thank you to Charlie for his participation in this episode. I found it really, really powerful hearing his thoughts on authenticity, on the responsibility of being and showing your vulnerability. And how candid he was as well about the difficulties and challenges of being a dad. The power of drawing a one mile circle around your house and really taking the time and effort to engage with the people within it. But let me know what you found most powerful in the comments and do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button on the podcasting service of your choice. Leave us a rating or review or share this episode with a friend who you think might enjoy it. Again, I want to say a huge thank you to Charlie. Also to my brother, Nic Nell, who did the music for this show. I also want to say a big thank you to this show's sponsor Levitate. Levitate in case you don't know, is a meditation and wellbeing community. We teach individuals, groups and companies how to find clarity, calm, and connection in a world of distraction. If you're interested in finding out more about what Levitate does, just head on over to www.levitate.london and we will catch you back here for another episode soon.